Mapping the National Party

[Tom] You are right. There were (and are) a substantial number of National MP’s who would have similar views to myself.
Wayne Mapp

This will be an ongoing, updated series of Wayne Mapp quotes that I think relevant to at least the NZ elections of 2023 and 2026.

I think they’re relevant despite Wayne having quit politics in 2011 after twelve years as an MP and three years in power as a Cabinet Minister.

It starts with the key quote highlighted above, which I accept as true.

What follows is a collection of those views of Wayne Mapp on various issues.

MSM & Social Media

One News

I know some commenters here view TV1 as simply the propaganda arm of Labour, but I am not one of them.


Family mandates:

Incidentally, I have decided that unvaccinated friends and family should participate in family events in the same way as those who are vaccinated.

The responses to Wayne are a hoot, with these three being my favourites:

Rodney Hide:
Sounds like a lot of fun at your place”.
Rich Prick:
“You don’t even come close to an audience with the Pope”.
“Having shared your company on the TF Platoon Commander/Platoon Sergeant Course in Waiouru in 1986, I would have to say that I would turn that down if I was a member of your family.
Chances of catching and dying of COVID: Virtually zero.
Chances of being bored to death by the pompous, supercilious, wokeness, and being droned at for hour after hour after hour: a good 30%”

On vaccine mandates for teachers:

It is almost certain that National won’t oppose this. I imagine that had National been in government, they would have also promoted such a policy.

On what 80-90% vaccination will lead to:

With all of that, Lockdowns will disappear, though masking won’t.

On vaccinating the Maori gangs:

They will need incentives. And that means it could effectively channel money into gangs. Maybe that is a price worth paying if it lifts the Maori vaccination rate.

On NZ’s success with the death toll:

New Zealand has had a far lower death rate than Australia. Most of us want to keep it that way. Hence 90% as recommended by the medical experts. But of course you already know all of this.


On Covid-Zero (August 2020):

So far as I am concerned, Plan A (eradication) is best for NZ. Supported by both National and Labour. The reason being is that we have an excellent chance of pulling off Plan A.

The end of the Zero-Covid policy:

I do my posts so that the alternative mainstream view is actually put forward…I would note that my viewpoint has a large consensus in NZ, including the two major parties. It is not typically the case that those who stand out against the prevailing viewpoint are correct. More frequently the minority is wrong.

On civil liberties vs Lockdowns:

“It is that sort of comparison that causes the opponents of the current Lockdowns to be ridiculed. And no, you won’t be able to convince me that basically I am (and just about everyone I know) is just the same as the Nazi SS.

In India Covid (April 2021):

India normally has about 27,000 deaths per day. Covid deaths is now 3,000 a day, but in fact will be at least double that. The overloading of the hospitals means people are not being treated for other conditions, and so will also be dying.

So probably a 30% increase over the normal death rate. That will certainly put stress on the heath system, and the dealing with the dead.

NZ vs Sweden (May 2020)

People used to say Sweden was the example to follow. Now no-one does. Their failure is all too apparent.

Government in New Zealand

2023 – Commenting on Chris Trotter’s support for Labour’s Kieran McAnulty’s support of co-governance

A very interesting and insightful article. And probably an accurate summation of the trend. It may or may not be fully reflected i the 2023 election, but ultimately change of this nature will occur, irrespective of which major party leads the government.

There is a sense of an unstoppable force, both on the nature of governance, but also climate change policy. You only have to read comments on conservative blogs, notably Kiwiblog, to understand the hard right know they have lost the argument against climate change. Their refuge is to retreat deeper into denialism.

On the 2020 election result:

Going more to the right will not get National back into office.

Key and English both understood which parts of the Clark government intiatives were cemented in, and which weren’t. And by reassuring the public on the things the had become part of the fabric, were able to win three elections, and be the largest party on the fourth.

On the two Chinese MP’s in National and Labour:

In what way are either Yang or Huo compromised? Yes, I know about their links to China. Why does this compromise them?In fact I believe it is the opposite.Both Yang and Huo serve as a valuable conduit, not just to the NZ Chinese community, but also to the Peoples Republic...

We need deep insights and connections and Yang and Huo provide precisely that.I realise Tom will not agree with any of that. But from what he writes, he seems to want NZ to have quite an antagonistic relationship with China. In my view, on that he is wrong.

On the concerns of Ann-Marie Brady and diplomat Finny about China:

I have read Brady’s work, and spoken to her. She is an China alarmist. I don’t agree with her perspective. As for Finny’s view, well that is his opinion.I don’t think New Zealand should have a solely transactional trade relationship with China, with China being held at a distance. It needs to be deeper than that, as indeed it is.

On NZ & China:

No, no, no
Somehow Tom missed the Memo about New Zealand having an independent foreign policy. The Memo was issued around 1985, and has been reissued many times since.

China is not going anywhere. It is a huge economic power with deep links right across the world. It is not Nazi Germany.

There won’t be World War 3, though obviously many in the US do want a new Cold War (including key policy makers in the current Administration – think Kurt Campbell). As apparently does Tom. Fortunately Tom’s advice will be ignored.

On Maori gangs:

The current government has gone completely soft on gangs, even though they are the biggest source of crime in NZ and will be licking many young Maori into a life of crime, violence and zero aspiration.

On failed National leader Todd Muller:

I presume there are two possible reasons why they hate Todd, one his failed leadership and two his liberal green credentials. I suspect the latter is the reason.
Similarly Labour is more to the left than the middle Democrats. For instance probably two thirds of the Key cabinet (and Nats generally) preferred Obama to the Republican contenders. So successful National leaders are very much like Romney.

I would also note that New Zealanders, by inclination, are far more green than US voters. And younger New Zealanders are overwhelmingly so.

More on Culture Wars:

In the US the abortion debate seems to be a sharp divide between Republicans and Democrats. In New Zealand, National MP’s nave a variety off views, from quite liberal to quite conservative. Thus it is a subject that is not discussed in the National caucus, except to note that it is a conscience issue.

On Winston Peters:

Having known Winston just about my entire adult life, I don’t believe he wilfully lies. 

On abolishing Ministries:

Well there you have it. You think that National should be against Ministry of Women’s Affairs. What you don’t seem to understand is that many National women MP’s were and are strongly in favour of the Ministry and were much part of its origins 

On National & Maori:

Unlike the Republicans, the National Party does not do culture wars. The reason being that National is not nearly as uniformly conservative as the contemporary Republicans. 

My prediction, there will be a substantial empowering of iwi in education, heath, housing supply and social policy in the next few years. National will go along with most of this once they are back in government, just as they have done so since 1990.

In that sense Don Brash was a bit of an aberration, one that National is not keen on repeating.

On National’s mid-2000’s policy on Maori seats:

I know some here noted that National used to have a policy to do away with the Maori electoral seats. That policy never had a chance of proceeding because there was way too much resistance in the caucus to actually do it. In the end the policy was quietly dropped.

The policy of abolishing the Maori seats was never a core policy. There were other things that were way more important. So those who supported it, or in fact had come up with it, never even tried to push the policy within caucus to actually implement it.

Once John Key did the deal with the Maori Party in 2008, the policy simply disappeared from discussion. Everyone understood that such a policy could not survive when doing a deal with the Maori Party. That deal was done in order to balance Act, so between 2008 and 2017 National was never dependent on a single coalition partner.

On diversity in government organisations.

I would see a government organisation as having only 3 Maori out of 130 as having a pretty unacceptable lack of diversity….In fact my view is standard orthodoxy across the public service, and in virtually every New Zealand political party. I would even say ACT. They may not publicly state it as their position, but from what I observe, it is certainly part of ACT’s practise.

Government in the USA

On the US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff claiming to have stepped into the Presidential chain of command and called his Chinese counterpart to “reassure” him:

There is also no way that this is going to be seen anywhere near as dangerous as Jan 6. Most people will have been reassured they were protected from war, just as they were when Nixon was in his end days.

On Thomas Sowell (don’t tell Ele):

Thomas Sowell is a rather predictable reference for Tom Hunter. I have read most of what Sowell has written over the years and have been rather unimpressed. He has very little recognition of community wide effects of decades of discrimination, and its effects on the psyche

On Black Lives Matter:

I am rather surprised that you miss the point of the \”Black Lives Matter\” slogan. As I am sure you must know, it is based on the fact that way too many unarmed black people in the US have been killed by the police.

On other Conservative/Right-wing Blacks:

In a population of 40 million black people, you can always find some contrarians. It does not change the issue that the US has a problem with systemic racism, derived ultimately from its history of slavery. There are way too many cases of unarmed black people being killed by police officers for it to be dismissed.

Is there a problem with gangs and nihilism? Yes, just as there is in New Zealand. In part this is also the result of decades of discrimination and inequality

On Biden vs Trump:

And at least in my mind, Biden is way better than Trump.

On Biden foreign policy

What do you think the percentage of Nat MP’s who would prefer Biden to Trump? I reckon it would be around 75% (at least).

And Trump has pulled out of numerous Arms Control Agreements and the Paris Agreement. All of which have strong bipartisan support in New Zealand.

So yes, Trump has been bad for the Western Alliance nations. He has fundamentally weakened the Alliances. Biden will get them working again.

I think most of the world will be happier with a less fraught and fevered approach to foreign policy.

On Israel vs. Iran:

I expect that Biden will succeed in reviving the JCPOA. In that case I would not expect any particular action by Israel. The JCPOA has extensive inspection protocols, the results of which will clearly be shared with Israel. Provided the agreement is adhered to, Israel won’t take any military action.

Israel’s concerns will arise at the end of the agreement when Iran is no longer bound by the JCPOA. The western nations will expect an extension of the JCPOA, since it is predicated on Iran remaining bound by the NPT. It is an obligation of the NPT that Iran can not legally acquire nuclear weapons.

On VP Kamal Harris:

As for Kamala Harris, as you say, she was always the logical choice. In fact through the debates she was my choice to be the candidate. She simply looks presidential.

She will strengthen the ticket. She is probably the most moderate of all the VP options, and comes across as savy and strong.

On the Hunter Biden emails and MSM/Big Tech burying it:

I would be surprised if the the voters give two hoots about Hunter Biden. In my experience these sorts of attacks are the mark of the desperate.

On Arizona State Sec, Kathryn Hobbs, saying in 2017 that Trump appealed to his neo-Nazi base:

As you well know the Secretary of State within states is typically a political office, so shock horror, they have political views. Have you any evidence at all the Kathryn Hobbs is doing her job in relation to the election in any other than a professional manner.

On Biden’s election victory:

What I think is happening is that the Republicans are trying to steal the election. So in Republican controlled states, hand recounts are being required, knowing they cannot be completed within the relevant time. 

On the January 6 “insurrection”:

If you can’t see the difference between the BLM demonstrations/riots and the events at the Capitol, then you have a completely skewed view as to what happened.

On child smacking legislation:

Hmm, Bob McCoskrie going on about the smacking legislation. Did he seriously think the Children’s Commissioner would do anything other than oppose smacking?
It is worth recalling that John Key made common cause with the government to get the bill through parliament.

The George Floyd BLM/Antifa protests in 2020.

On a white couple defending their home from a BLM mob.

From what I have of this, it was a ridiculous thing for the couple to do. And I am surprised that Tom wants to defend it. Perhaps he is only doing so to wind people up

As I read them you seem to be opposed to all the demonstrations. Basically blaming Antica for it all.To virtually all NZers it is odd position to take. You have ended up aligning yourself with Trump on this issue.

I certainly do hope that Trump loses the election. His approach on this issue is in its essence, crude and divisive. He is part of the problem, not the solution. 

On Climate Change and Renewable Energy

Climate Change the 2023 Auckland Floods:

The deniers have become a rather shrill and noisy lot, particularly as they lose public support. They now completely dominate comment on conservative websites, such as KiwiBlog, pouring scorn on anyone who cares to differ… The issue is more of a problem for the political right (especially the moderate right) than the political left. Just about all climate change deniers are on the right, embracing a whole slew of hard right issues.

National has taken a moderate approach to the issue, and the new spokesperson, Todd Muller clearly accepts the science. Groundswell won’t be able to find too many friends in National, at least not influential ones.

Wind farms:

Probably at the moment the most notable is the UK. No new ICE cars after 2032, massive construction of zero emission power generation plants being mostly offshore wind farms. The new ones in Dogger Bank are truly enormous, taller than the Effiel Tower. The UK is also building new nuclear plants for base load.
The big step up in wind farms should give Tom a new chance to say how crazy that is.

Electric Vehicles:

Get used to the change in technology. ICE cars won’t be manufactured for too many more years…In the meantime it is rather tiresome to keeping reading of the dinosaurs revolt.








20 responses to “Mapping the National Party”

  1. Andrei Avatar

    Tom you shouldn’t write posts attacking people who comment here

    Wayne’s views are his views and are worth listening to and debating

    You shouldn’t personalize it – play the ball not the man

    1. Tom Hunter Avatar
      Tom Hunter

      I thought about this carefully before posting it. While I have argued with Wayne on most of these points, the purpose of the post is to explore how close Wayne’s views on various issues are to those of the National Party in general, and frankly they seem very close.

      I don’t see that as a personal attack: these are his comments and he stands by them, so I don’t see what the issue would be with collecting them in one place, together with his claim that he’s still very representative of National Party thinking.

  2. Taieri Avatar

    As for Kamala Harris (…) She simply looks presidential.

    Says Mr Mapp

    Wayne’s views (…) are worth listening to and debating

    Says Andrei

    I’m not sure that in view of statement 1 Mr Mapp is worth listening to and debating. I’m even less sure whether someone that makes such a statement has anything useful to say on any matter.

    Post scriptum: as for “personalizing”, political views are not formed in a vacuum, political statements are made by concrete people and there’s nothing wrong in “personalizing” opposition to such views, whatever they might be. On the contrary. At the end of the day Mr Mapp’s views are of a quite different substance than the views of Taieri or Andrei, since they are presented by a former prominent politician and government minister.

    1. Wayne Avatar

      Clearly the Biden team agreed with my view, otherwise they would not have chosen her. Although I would say she has not filled the role quite as well as I would have expected. For instance, is she as good as Biden was when he was VP?

    2. Wayne Avatar

      Hmm, more accurate to say that the Biden team came to the same conclusion as I did. Obviously they didn’t agree with me since they would have been utterly unaware of what I thought.

  3. Porky Roebuck Avatar
    Porky Roebuck

    He should’ve joined and sought office with the Labour Party to be honest. Same for Chester Borrows.

    No more wets.

  4. Cassandra Avatar

    Wayne Mapp is not at all representative of the National Party but it does seem that he represents the party’s left wing, the Labour lite part. Whether it adds votes is another matter. The left seems to me to control the Nats, in that while in government they never Umwound any left policy and indeed introduced many. Does that lose votes? Certainly mine.

  5. gcmc49 Avatar

    “Wayne Mapp was initially a member of the Labour Party and in 1981 he put himself forward for the Labour
    candidacy for the Roskill electorate
    One of 14 contenders he lost out to Phil Goff…”

    1. Uncoffined Avatar

      So basically he was a career politician then, which explains his lack of an actual position on anything except what he percieves the majority wants.

    2. leoj Avatar

      This fact tells all.
      That the shivering, quivering, spineless Nats took Mapp on is very telling.
      What a disgrace the Nats are to their own philosophy.
      So glad that I figured this out, even before this post.
      Can’t trust them.
      F##king traitors.

  6. St Paul Avatar
    St Paul

    These views are pretty sensible when compared to say yours. Thanks for sharing.

  7. Tom Hunter Avatar
    Tom Hunter

    Folks, referring back to Andrei’s original comment: this post is not supposed to devolve into a series of attacks on Wayne Mapp. He has arguments and positions that align with his ideology and philosophy of government.

    I do not agree with almost any of them.

    But the post is about the degree to which they exist inside the National Party and what that means for our future. I would appreciate it if you discuss that aspect rather than taking direct cracks at Wayne, much as you (and I) may disagree with him.

    After all, as he so often gleefully points out, he has confidence that he represents the great Centre of NZ politics because of multiple National election victories. The former is an arguable point, the latter is not.

    Could be worse. Imagine how Psycho’s feeling right now with Climate Change policies. 🙂

  8. Porky Roebuck Avatar
    Porky Roebuck

    I reckon National will remain in the doldrums for quite a while. To me anyway, it is no longer acceptable for the Nats to win the treasury benches and “better manage” left-wing schemes put in place by Labour, or sit on their arses and allow local & regional councils to run amok, or to pander to constituencies who will NEVER vote for them in any significant numbers, like the Grey Lynn liberal/green wankerati, or Maori, no more riding the immigration ponzi scheme in order to prop up GDP.

    My old man likes to tell me that Key/English “balanced the books” – well, whoop de fucken doo, that is just an ephemerality that can be wiped out in a heartbeat, as evidenced by this Covid fiasco.

    1. Tom Hunter Avatar
      Tom Hunter

      “I do not believe that the solution to our problem is simply to elect the right people. The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. Unless it is politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing, the right people will not do the right thing either, or it they try, they will shortly be out of office.”

    2. Andrei Avatar

      The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.

      The $64,000 question is who determines what is the “right thing”?

      And who gets to “establish a political climate of opinion”?

      Is it you?

      Is it me?

      Is it Dr Mapp?

      Or perhaps it is Jessica Mutch Mckay?

      That is why democracy must ultimately fail, policy is increasingly decided by who shouts the loudest without regard to logic, reason or even common sense

  9. Paul Scott Avatar
    Paul Scott

    Utterly terrible to read what the National party was and is. Where do they find these spiritless people..

  10. The Veteran Avatar
    The Veteran

    Tom … your post is wrong on so many fronts and thank you Andrei for pointing out just one of them. Wayne Mapp can only speak for himself. He cannot speak for the National Party any more than I can. Neither can the more rabid ACT anti-vaxers here on this blog be accused of speaking for the ACT Party. The National Party is a broad church and has always had a liberal wing … think of Ralph Hanan who, as the Minister of Justice ended the death penalty; think of ‘Gentleman’ Jack Marshall.

    Sure, Wayne Mapp would identify with the liberal wing of the Party but I think he’ll forgive me if I break confidence and place on record a conversation we had on the makeup of the political wing (read caucus) just a few days ago. Wayne opined (and I agree with him) that the liberal wing of the caucus is much reduced from when he was in parliament and now numbers less than ten. Their ability to influence policy is much diminished.

    So, sorry to rain on your parade Tom but I can understand the politics behind it. ACT needing continuously to parade itself as different … and it surely is … on RMA reform and the anti-terrorism legislation aligning itself with the Greens and Maori Party in opposition. … strange bedfellows indeed.

    1. leoj Avatar

      You are welcome to the weak, woke, shivering, quivering, pathetic Nats.
      There is nothing whatsoever that is conservative about them.
      Traitors, all of them.
      Correction for you: ACT are anti-mandates, quite different from anti-vaxxers.
      However, those boosters are working real well aren’t they? (Not!)
      You dunces should have done your homework. Ivermectin was the best alternative and you idiots blew it and blew the deficit wide open in the process. Idiots.

      1. The Veteran Avatar
        The Veteran

        loej … spokethingy for the uber right conspiracy theorists. The ones that think that all that disagree with him are part of the great Jewish conspiracy theory to rule the world. Keep on keeping on fella … be part of the ‘also rans’ and please mind the door less it slams you in the backside as you exit stage left, Sad nothing going nowhere.

  11. Chris Jones Avatar
    Chris Jones

    Agree Veteran. Keeping someone’s comments in some sort of file is a bit creepy. I don’t agree with Mapp by the way.

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