No Minister

Roe v Wade is aborted

with 45 comments

As has been anticipated for weeks now – ever since the leak from the US Supreme Court of a draft decision written by Justice Alito that overturned the infamous SCOTUS Roe v. Wade decision on abortion – the official ruling has been released that confirms the draft. Full opinion here. An excellent concision of it here.

The 1973 case that set US abortion policy across the nation, has been overturned. So too has its lesser known but equally important – some would say more important – 1992 decision, Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Casey had already booted the trimester nonsense of Roe but kept in place the even more ridiculous notion that abortion derived from a right to privacy supposedly embedded in the 14th amendment, itself a result of an earlier SCOTUS ruling in the mid-1960’s.

Despite lasting for fifty years and seemingly settled in the minds of most US Liberals, the ruling was always on shaky ground with its talk of rights based on “penumbras”, – implied rights that could be glimpsed in parts of the US Bill of Rights as derived from other explicit rights. Almost from the moment the decision was made it was attacked by constitutional scholars, such as this Yale Law school paper from 1973, The Wages of Crying Wolf, which laid out the arguments for and against abortion but focused on the weakness of the privacy claim. The author of that paper appears to support the right to an abortion, and there have been other pro-abortion legal scholars who have, nevertheless, explained why Rose was such a weak, unconstitutional and plain bad law. Such people included none other than Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:

She thought Roe v. Wade went too far. “Measured motions seem to me right, in the main, for constitutional as well as common law adjudication,” she argued. “Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable. The most prominent example in recent decades is Roe v. Wade.”

Ginsburg noted that Roe struck down far more than the specific Texas criminal abortion statute at issue in the case. “Suppose the court had stopped there, rightly declaring unconstitutional the most extreme brand of law in the nation, and had not gone on, as the court did in Roe, to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, a set of rules that displaced virtually every state law then in force,” she said. “A less encompassing Roe, one that merely struck down the extreme Texas law and went no further on that day, I believe and will summarize why, might have served to reduce rather than to fuel controversy.”

Ginsburg went on to contrast the court’s landmark decision in Roe with a slew of decisions from 1971 to 1982 in which the court struck down “a series of state and federal laws that differentiated explicitly on the basis of sex.” Rather than creating a new philosophy of law and imposing it on the nation immediately, “the court, in effect, opened a dialogue with the political branches of government…In essence, the court instructed Congress and state legislatures: rethink ancient positions on these questions,” Ginsburg noted. “The ball, one might say, was tossed by the justices back into the legislators’ court, where the political forces of the day could operate.”

It is this reasoning that has turned up in this decision, and exactly as Ginsburg stated, the ball has now been thrown back to the legislators, especially the State ones, and as my co-blogger GD explains, that does not mean it has been banned.

Some states will be hardline in both directions, others will find middle ground that their voters accept. I expect the Deep Blue parts of the nation like California, Illinois and New York, to promptly pass laws that widen abortion laws even further – perhaps as low as the standards of New Zealand, where anything goes – whereas others, especially Red States, will be more restrictive, although I don’t expect any of them to outright ban abortion. Even the Mississippi law that triggered this case allows abortions up to 15 weeks of pregnancy, which brings up this interesting factoid:

This is similar to other European countries, including Western Europeans like Sweden.

Of course now that the decision is back in the hands of politicians that’s going to mean a lot of problems for them – or at least for the principled ones.

However, as this article explains, other groups will no longer be able to hide behind “Law Of The Land” arguments and the fight either, like the US Roman Catholic Church:

For years, Supreme Court rulings like Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey allowed our leaders to hide. Republicans could campaign against it, rallying their base and decrying its injustice, then once in power make the excuse that, like it or not, Roe was “the law of the land.”

Democrats alike could claim they were personally against abortion, but believed it was up to the woman. Moreover, they didn’t need to vote much on the issue — it was already decided; it was “the law of the land.”

Even Catholic bishops could shirk confrontation, pointing to those politicians’ dodges and excuses, and hiding behind the same. No drastic action needed.

I’d like to think that the spineless fucks who lead the RC church nowadays might even consider excommunication for the likes of Nancy “Abortion is Sacred” Pelosi and Joe “Mass Every Sunday” Biden. Being a Catholic who quietly supports abortion is one thing: loudly proclaiming that you love and defend even its most extreme versions is something else. No principled person would remain in such a church, but of course Pelosi, Biden and other politicians have done so because they know there are (or were) millions of traditional working class Catholics who also religiously voted Democrat and loved being able to vote for Democrat Catholics – without thinking too much about how Catholic these frauds were.

Such nonsense was already changing before this ruling. Long gone are the days when liberals like Bill Clinton took the demure position that abortion was basically a necessary evil that should be “safe, legal, and rare”. Neither he nor any other recent Democrat president would dare take that position now. which is why Pelosi, Biden and other Democrat “Catholics” have basically stiffed the church while hiding behind its public garments.

The political and cultural brawl that is about to commence will be nasty – I often think that with Roe, SCOTUS was trying in good faith to avoid this, but it’s more like the similar screwup with the Dred Scott decision in 1857, thinking they had resolved the issue of slavery – but it will likely be less Federal than at the State level. That’s because the Democrats have held off putting Roe and Casey into Federal legislation over the last fifty years, even when they had big majorities, because it is still so controversial with their own voters – and again because they could hide behind the SCOTUS decisions.

No longer:

Lenin allegedly said, “There are decades when nothing happens, and there are weeks when decades happen.” He was supposedly discussing the Bolshevik Revolution, but the saying could be applied to America’s growing turmoil at home, too.

Ever upward is the only path liberal government permits, which is why the repeal of Roe would be devastating. “Our democracy,” as they call it, depends not only on never turning back the clock of social reform, but never even admitting such a thing is possible. Even if, as is likely, almost half the states would enact abortion regimes as permissive as, or even more permissive than, the current one, the game would be up. The nature of such modern rights would be exposed, unforgettably. It would be, as the liberals fear, a kind of revolution.

Which is why they have little choice but to object not merely to the leaked decision and the brave justices who support it, but to the whole system…. Prepare for decades to happen in the next year or so of our politics, as the battle between the progressives’ constitution and the founders’ Constitution intensifies.

That was written just after the leak happened, and we’ve already seen what was directed at the key Justices, with attempted protests outside their homes – illegal actually but not enforced by Biden’s politicised DOJ of course – plus attempted an assassination and implied threats of such.

The Democrats are not helping themselves with crap like that, or this:

Representative Bishop followed up [with abortion activist Aimee Arrambide ], “Do you believe then that men can become pregnant and have abortions?” She had those eyes — the ones that make you know you’re going to get an answer that you’re going to regret. “Yes,” she declared.

Party of science did you say? I also can’t wait for the whole My Body, My Choice argument to re-appear, shamelessly so in the wake of vaccine mandates pushed relentlessly by many Democrats.

The protests are already on the way with the Nights of Rage, and given the arsons and attacks that have already been made on dozens of Catholic churches and pro-life pregnancy clinics I’ve no doubt that there are going to be even more:

Brace for impact.

However, it should also be noted that the SCOTUS leak of this ruling, undoubtedly done to try and intimidate the Court and gin up Democrat voters for the up-coming Mid-Term elections, failed on both counts. Yes, there have been protests, but they have not been very large, have consisted of little more than the White Liberal Woman demographic, and have not shifted the issue up the scale in polls of voters over the last month.

I doubt the next wave will be any more successful, though I’m also sure the MSM will amplify it as much as possible to make it seem that way.

Written by Tom Hunter

June 25, 2022 at 5:36 pm

45 Responses

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  1. Knee-jerk, leftist boilerplate bleatings today by our head girl and other politicians about “my body, my choice” ring very hollow in the light of “we know best” vaccine mandates that have caused a staff shortage in the health sector (oops). Similarly, complaints about inflicting ideology on others is a bit rich after 50 years of SCOTUS and the left forcing their pro-abortion beliefs on States whose voters may have preferred a more balanced approach to protect the life of the unborn child. This will be a very fractious, contentious issue for a few months and then sanity will hopefully prevail over time.


    June 25, 2022 at 6:31 pm

  2. Witnessing the left hand side of the Twitterverse spectrum seething and writing in self-flagellating ecstacy has been a sight to behold. These people are nuts !

    Porky Roebuck

    June 25, 2022 at 6:32 pm

    • Agreed, especially enjoying the @michaelmalice tweeter feed today, he is relentless in his trolling of the libtard left 🙂


      June 25, 2022 at 7:26 pm

    • Tom Hunter

      June 25, 2022 at 7:35 pm

  3. The NZ law on abortion is about right for our country, testified by the fact that the great majority of Parliamentarians across the political spectrum voted for them. As for those here, all with aliases, except for Tom, well, frankly you are way out of touch with the views of the great majority of New Zealanders on this issue. Though I guess you think of the rest of us as sheeple. So be it.


    June 25, 2022 at 7:40 pm

    • “Straw man” argument as NZ law has nothing to do with US law at State or Federal level. I also doubt that you have your finger on the pulse of the views of the majority of NZ voters. All you have is your own opinion, much the same as the rest of us.


      June 25, 2022 at 7:55 pm

      • Unlike you, I actually look at the data. So I know, based on that knowledge, where the mid point of politics and political opinion is.
        Which I have had to point out numerous times on this blog as to how and why National positions itself on a wide variety of issues. Called trusting the people as to how they think they should be governed and how they think the country should project itself. Wisdom of crowds.
        New Zealand is traditionally a progressive nation, not in the left wing sense of that term, but rather that New Zealanders like to think of themselves are liberally minded. We are willing to be seen as leaders on a variety of international issues. And fundamentally want everyone to have a fair go.


        June 25, 2022 at 11:04 pm

      • So I know, based on that knowledge, where the mid point of politics and political opinion is.

        Yeah, you’re the perfect National Party man since the whole outfit endlessly strives to figure out that mid-point so it can keep getting re-elected.

        The Left also know where the mid-point is but the difference between them and you and National is that they’re constantly trying to shift that mid-point towards them, and while that might mean that they mis-calculate more often than National and thus spend less time in government, when they do get their hands on the levers of power, boy do they move that mid-point, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, and it’s permanent.

        Leaving you and National with nothing more than the challenge of catching up the next time around. That’s why we’re going to get some version of Three Waters, He Puapua, etc, etc – though better managed I’m sure.

        Of course as this process happens it pushes you and National farther away from even the things you do want and are passionate enough to fight over, like tax cuts, both corporate and personal.

        Basically you’re useless, although I suspect a large part is that you actually agree with most of the Labour ideas on our community and its future direction.

        More for other commentators than you I’ll reference three posts I did some time ago:
        The Precious Midpoint

        Advice from the peanut gallery which describes the issues the GOP had with the “extremist” Ronald Reagan.

        This sounds familiar

        All of them describe where your approach will ultimately lead this nation. Thatcher’s quote from the second post describes you and National precisely:

        At the level of principle, rhetorically and in Opposition, it opposed these (left-wing Labour Party doctrines of planning, regulation, controls and subsidies) … and preached the gospel of free enterprise with very little qualification.

        Almost every post-war Tory victory had been won on slogans such as ‘Britain Strong and Free’ or ‘Set the People Free’. But in the fine print of policy, and especially in government, the Tory Party merely pitched camp in the long march to the left. It never tried seriously to reverse it. Privatization? The Carlisle State Pubs were sold off. Taxation? Regulation? Subsidies? If these were cut down at the start of a Tory government, they gradually crept up again as its life ebbed away. The welfare state? We boasted of spending more money than Labour, not of restoring people to independence and self-reliance.

        The result of this style of accommodationist politics, as my colleague Keith Joseph complained, was that post-war politics became a ‘socialist ratchet’ — Labour moved Britain towards more statism; the Tories stood pat; and the next Labour Government moved the country a little further left. The Tories loosened the corset of socialism; they never removed it.

        Like Reagan she was also described as an “extremist” by large elements of her own party, for whom she applied the term, “wets”.

        Tom Hunter

        June 26, 2022 at 12:07 am

      • “so I know, based on that knowledge, where the mid point of politics and political opinion is”

        Tom your analysis of the awfulness of National is the most accurate I’ve ever read. Sadly we have no choice but to vote for them.
        This country with the likes of Wayne at the top is truly doomed. Sad because there was so much promise squandered

        Old Curmudgeon

        June 26, 2022 at 9:58 am

      • Tom,

        Margaret Thatcher was the reason why I joined National. Defeating communism in our lifetimes.


        June 26, 2022 at 11:43 am

      • Found an undated post (prior to the new abortion laws being passed) from Family First : Abortion Law in NZ.

        At the end of the post are listed Curia survey results on what the NZ public thinks of abortion – which are not as extreme as Wayne implies they are – in fact, they are far more conservative. For instance,
        * 36% believe life begins at conception.
        * 47% think that once a heartbeat is detected, an unborn baby should have human rights & be legally protected,
        * 56% of women thought the prior limit of 20wks for an abortion was too long – should have been shorter.


        Lucia Maria

        June 26, 2022 at 1:55 pm

    • What a pity that a man with three law degrees and who spent time in the USA has nothing more to say on this post than the same three points he makes on almost every issue except warships:

      The Vast Centre rules.
      The NM posters and commentariat are not part of this Vast Centre.
      Weird combo of pride/whinging about the result of “sheeple”.

      Tom Hunter

      June 25, 2022 at 8:10 pm

      • I don’t really care about the SCOTUS decision. My comment was specially directed at your comment about the New Zealand law which you obviously disagree with.


        June 25, 2022 at 11:08 pm

    • Wayne.

      NZ Law is decided – this thread is on the USA

      SCOTUS has decided that the Constitution of the United States doesn’t include anything about abortion, hence the states should make laws state by state on how they want to handle the situation.

      The Left reacts poorly as they want the ability to just impose what they think is right on a national basis, abrogating the sovereignty of each state in the US federal system to make law for their state.

      If the voting public want abortion rights of a certain flavour, they will vote for representatives in their state would will deliver that flavour via State law. If that means California has different law on this matter to Mississippi so be it….


      June 25, 2022 at 8:17 pm

  4. “The NZ law on abortion is about right for our country, testified by the fact that the great majority of Parliamentarians across the political spectrum voted for them”

    Maybe but that doesn’t make it right.
    As for scorning us for being behind an alias, can’t speak for everyone but my name out there opens me to retaliation and damage to my business. If the owners of the blog don’t want us to comment then it’s their choice to stop us.
    Not all of us are sitting home on a big fat pension after years of sucking at the public trough.
    It can be argued that those out among the great unwashed every day could be more in touch with peoples views than those in the elitist bubbles.

    Old Curmudgeon

    June 25, 2022 at 8:25 pm

  5. Jesus wept. With Joy sometimes.

    A determined, organised minority (properly catechised catholics) have shown they can conquer the Goliaths. A day to celebrate.

    I wonder how many of the Lefts culture victories are about to be rewound. The traditionalists seem to be on the front foot, collecting victories, as the left stands astride a mountain of skulls seemingly victorious (Biden family). Yet they are ceding a lot of ground. What will happen with the US Empires gay marriage colonies (NZ) when Clarence Thomas annuls Obergefell v. Hodges, and the whole fake Empire crashes down like Sauron’s tower.


    June 25, 2022 at 10:04 pm

  6. I for one do not want to see the NZ Abortion laws changed. I agree with Wayne on that issue. The law may not be perfect, but it works. There are a lot more important things for our Parliament to address (which they won’t) Like our descent into 3rd world status.
    There are many commenting on SCOTUS decision without either knowing what it was, what it meant, or even how the levels of government there work.That hasn’t stopped the emotive ignorance displayed by all and sundry. It is a forlorn hope but NZ here and now has problems to be fixed a lot more important than something overseas that has no material effect on NZ people.

    Chris Morris

    June 26, 2022 at 10:40 am

    • I agree with most of what you say, but I’m amused at what I read (from the reactions of commentators here and at places like Kiwiblog) that indicate that this American decision has been plastered across all our media here, with lots of outrage.

      Amused because of course my main focus here at No Minister is the USA, and I often get comments (admittedly usually trolls) saying “who cares about American issues?”. Well when a domestic US issue can be linked somehow to our domestic issues – especially an issue that the Left can use to contrast their good selves with the horrors of the USA – then apparently we’re supposed to care a lot.

      Of course there’s also the partisan angle, with “Bomber” Bradbury’s article today in The Daily Blog, perfectly matching that of the NZ Herald in desperately trying to attach this US fight to Luxon and his “Christianity”. Given that National “does not fight culture wars” and has demonstrated that every single day for at least three decades now, it’s a joke of an effort and I don’t think it will work in hurting Luxon or National.

      But it’s telling that they try, and it’s also telling that it is effective in one respect, which is that National is terrified of the tactic. Recall Mueller, his collection of 2016 US election trinkets, and Tova’s attack on such. What a pathetic display by Mueller that was.

      Tom Hunter

      June 26, 2022 at 10:58 am

  7. Felt like twitter went totally berserk yesterday. The reaction from NZ has been interesting as well, with the absolute obsession with abortion and the demands that Luxon again prostrates himself. And on cue:

    Lucia Maria

    June 26, 2022 at 12:17 pm

    • My point above exactly. Luxon is enabling this shit to be pulled on him and National again in the future. On just about any issue you care to name, education reform, healthcare reform, social welfare reform, tax cuts, anything, one of the Left’s weapons will be to tie National to the US Right Wing (“We’re sliiping towards the dark abyss of American horrors”).

      I can just see it, and while it might only be a temporary attack it will force National to divert from their message and arguments, their selling points on such things, and play defense for days on end. This would have blown over in 24 hours anyway even if he had said nothing and the same attacks will continue just as they would have in that case. They’ll just say Luxon is lying and that he and his “Christian” mates are secretly plotting for the same thing to be done here.

      Again, it’s like Mueller hiding the MAGA hat. You don’t win against such tactics or against such people by issuing earnest denials and/or grovelling admissions of “mistakes”.

      Tom Hunter

      June 26, 2022 at 12:57 pm

      • Totally agree.

        Though, I would have liked Luxon to be much braver and state that our abortions laws are on the extreme end by world standards and should be looked at. He really ought to learn how to go on the attack rather than be purely defensive all the time, otherwise he is being herded by his opponents and shows himself to be weak.

        Lucia Maria

        June 26, 2022 at 1:26 pm

      • Yeah, after writing that comment I was thinking the same thing, so here’s my take on what Luxon could have written in two Tweets:

        Facing an increasingly poor economic future and looking at their failures on every issue they claimed to care about, from housing and poverty to healthcare and education, and with falling polls, a desperate Labour Party has tried to link National with an American legal decision which has no impact on this country.


        National MP’s voted for the 2020 abortion bill as did Labour MP’s, others against, just as did Labour MP’s like Nanaia Mahuta. As such the New Zealand Parliament has decided on this issue and National will not be re-visiting it. Labour’s gambit is a pathetic insult to Kiwi voters

        Tom Hunter

        June 26, 2022 at 2:06 pm

    • If Roe v Wade is an issue for the American people who have a different set of constitutional arrangements than us why is Luxon disgracing his party and his country by stopping an MP for expressing an opinion?

      I’m starting to suspect Luxon likes being Leader of HM Opposition.


      June 26, 2022 at 2:10 pm

      • As far as I know O’Connor is a Catholic so his opposition to abortion and his celebration of the end of Roe v Wade is entirely in keeping with that.

        But as I said a couple of weeks ago, Luxon is playing the same “small target” game that Hewson did in Australia after losing the “unloseable” election of 1993.

        I don’t object to that tactic but it should not have to descend to this level of grovelling before the likes of Tova/Jessica, John Campbell and company – who will continue to hammer away on this and similar issues anyway.

        It’s such a laugh to hear a National Party person claiming that “they don’t do culture wars” in these situations. As a famous commie once said:

        You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you

        Tom Hunter

        June 26, 2022 at 2:22 pm

      • Me on Kiwiblog just now, replying to Tony Stuart, who is one of the worst sycophants you will ever see. This is was in relation to Luxon ordering Simon O’Connor to remove his post:

        What a cop out. O’Connor was expressing his opinion. The major problem with politics in this country right now is just that: There’s no debate. No expressing of opinions, and following on, opposition MPs are not prepared to take a stand and argue their corner. The very nature of our democracy requires it, you could say it is compulsory, mandatory (i.e. a mandate I do support). The weakening of human spirit, energy, passion and principle is to weaken our values, if there are any left. National Party apparatchiks like you are the problem. I encounter them regularly. Too scared to be polarising. Too frightened to have a view outside the “mainstream” for fear of offending someone. Most of these sorts of people lie deep within the National Party, and they are the root of the opposition dysfunction we experience in politics in this country. I’m really angry right now witnessing this placid decline into oblivion led by the very people I expected to take a stance. I’m going to send a private message to Simon O’Connor congratulating him on expressing his view – not on his view because I disagree with it, simply that I applaud he had one and put it out there.

        We saw this also with Harete Hipango and then with the Wellington protest – opposition politicians taking photos and putting them on social media with smart alec comments, when the very people who wanted to be heard were ignored by piss-weak sycophants.

        Before I end this rant, a plea to the National Party weaklings that exhibit this blog: Wake up and stop being part of the problem.

        Nick K

        June 26, 2022 at 3:18 pm

  8. Tom, you were right.

    Lucia Maria

    June 26, 2022 at 2:04 pm

    • Obviously not a conscience issue anymore!

      Lucia Maria

      June 26, 2022 at 3:11 pm

    • “Simon O’Connor’s post was taken down because it was causing distress and does not represent the position of the National Party.”

      “Today is a good day” on a background of hearts is considered to be “causing distress”. Likely, the reaction was “causing distress” for Luxon, who keeps thinking he can distance himself from “abortion is murder”. He’s finding out just how wrong that hope is, so ought to come up with a different strategy, IMO. One with far more backbone, rather than coming down on his own MPs.

      Lucia Maria

      June 26, 2022 at 3:20 pm

      • Simon should be running the National party. Luxon is a mirage. He is a gatekeeper for Globo-corporate-national. Puppet boy.


        June 26, 2022 at 9:31 pm

  9. Quite predictable reaction from all those Luxon haters who inhabit this blog ignoring he simple fact that in NZL abortion law reform is determined on a conscience vote and in that context Luxon is correct in saying that the National Party does not have a position on that There will be people across the political spectrum who hold opposing views and again that is right an proper. Luxon’s personal views are well known and he is entitled to them as is Simon O’Connor and it was a mistake to insist that he remove his post.

    Having said all that I welcome Luxon’s statement that the incoming National Government will not be re-litigating or revisiting the law. As I understand it that too is ACT’s position. That does not prevent a MP doing that by way of a Private Member’s Bill but quite frankly I see little appetite for that We have far great things to worry about like an economy out of control with every indicator going south at a rate of knots.

    The Veteran

    June 26, 2022 at 3:58 pm

    • “Conscience” votes are just a way of pretending that whatever Godless abomination that is to be inflicted on this nation has been done so through the democratic process and normal people should just STFU our betters have decided

      Nobody hates Luxon BTW, he is a bland non entity, a non viable alternative to the ghastly creature who inhabits the 9th floor of the beehive for the moment

      But guess what – it doesn’t actually matter because our world is heading for catastrophe – which is the inevitable consequence of a culture that turns its back on God and the chickens are about to come home to roost BIG TIME


      June 26, 2022 at 4:21 pm

    • No, it wasn’t a mistake that he be asked to remove the post. Simon should have known that New Zealand is very differently positioned on this issue than the United States. Right at this time, the post was guaranteed to inflame passions, and likely to result in many women refusing to vote National.

      Christopher Luxon clearly appreciated this by having to stress that National would not be seeing to amend the abortion laws.

      In my view Simon made a serious political misjudgement by making the post. None of the other conservative leaning (in the sense of moral attitudes) National MP’s thought they needed to do so.


      June 26, 2022 at 7:27 pm

      • Just to be sure: An electorate MP, who is beholden to his constituents, is not permitted to express a personal opinion on a conscience issue?

        Nick K

        June 26, 2022 at 7:54 pm

      • Right at this time, the post was guaranteed to inflame passions, and likely to result in many women refusing to vote National.

        I see, and Luxon’s cunning plan is to try and fool these Jacinda fans into thinking that O’Connor and the other National “conservatives” aren’t really in favour of more restrictive abortion rules – or at least fool them long enough to vote National in 2023.

        Brilliant. Baldrick would be proud. Worth every bit of crushing party control. Labour will be filled with envy.

        Still, maybe such voters are that stupid? After all they didn’t just vote for Labour in the last two elections, they worship Jacinda.

        Tom Hunter

        June 26, 2022 at 9:38 pm

      • Just to be sure: An electorate MP, who is beholden to his constituents, is not permitted to express a personal opinion on a conscience issue?

        Of course not Nick – the whole National Party ethos is to stand for nothing at all, which is why appalling as Labour are National are not worth considering, they are just a bunch of self serving time servers with no guiding philosophy or principles.

        When an MP expresses an opinion deemed “controversial” as in the case mentioned above they get slapped down


        June 26, 2022 at 9:41 pm

      • Nick,

        Good question.

        If he was asked at a public meeting about where he stood on abortion, I would expect him to say, “I am opposed to abortion. It is a conscience issue for MP’s, and if there is a bill in parliament that restricted the right to abortion I would be voting with my conscience to support such a bill.”

        It is quite clear that a National MP would not be permitted to put a Member Bill into the ballot on this issue. The submission of Members Bill always requires the approval of Caucus, even if they are conscience matters. For almost 50 years, since The Abortion, Contraception and Sterilisation Act 1976, National MP’s have not been able to have a Members Bill on abortion approved By Caucus. The matter was dealt with by the 1976 Act until Labour/Greens opened the question again in the last Parliament.

        As Chris Luxon has stated, no National MP can now submit any Bill that will limit access to abortion beyond the current law. However, maybe a future NZF MP could submit such a Bill or if a Christian Party got into Parliament, they could submit such a Bill into the Members Bills ballot. Then it would be a conscience issue for National MP’s.


        June 27, 2022 at 5:46 pm

    • Nick,

      On this issue, at this time, yes. Political reality requires that Simon O’Connor not act as a distraction to National’s campaign. He failed in that requirement. It should have been obvious to Simon that such a statement would be a distraction.

      His statement required the Leader to practise damage control because of Simon’s twitter comment, something a Leader should not have to do.


      June 26, 2022 at 9:37 pm

      • Wrong Dr Mapp it is Luxon who has inflicted the damage to National by reminding us all that National doesn’t represent anybody, just an empty vessel


        June 26, 2022 at 9:44 pm

      • So at a future date on this issue it could be OK? When might that be?

        Of course, today’s news is tomorrow’s fish and chip paper, so it’d be a little pointless him restating that post in six months time, because “today is a good day” at that time will mean nothing to everyone.

        So he’s been silenced. What if his constituents demanded he speak out, then what?

        Nick K

        June 27, 2022 at 8:30 am

      • Politics is a team game and on this issue, Andre is wrong. Nick asked a question and Dr Mapp provided a pretty good answer. Here, Andre reminds me of the Indian cricket team in the eighties, as described by, I think, Ian Chappell – a bunch of talented individuals too stupid to work together as a team.


        June 27, 2022 at 5:57 pm

      • Andre(SIC) is wrong

        There is no right and wrong in this matter Adolf – it is merely a question of whether or not National is a worthy recipient of my vote and it is not

        National is a hopeless party as evidenced by the fact they manage to get snarled up over a US supreme court ruling that has no local significance and managing to alienate a significant proportion of their natural base by trying to appease those who would never vote for them in the first place…

        … demonstrating once again what a sorry bunch of clowns they really are

        The harridans for whom abortion is a sacrament party have the National party dancing on their strings like marionettes and make joes out them time and time again


        June 27, 2022 at 8:01 pm

  10. Since Andrei has turned up, here’s an interesting video:

    Porky Roebuck

    June 26, 2022 at 4:25 pm

  11. Crazies to the left of me, wimps to the right.

    Porky Roebuck

    June 27, 2022 at 8:47 am

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