The Tannenberg Scenario
The WWI Battle of Tannenberg, fought between Russian and Germany in 1914 at the start of the war resulted in the Russian Second Army being almost completely destroyed and was followed by battles in the surrounding areas that then wiped out most of Russia’s First Army.
This led indirectly to the fall of the Czarist government three years later as Russia failed to recover and could only fight, at best, a holding action on the Eastern front until it all fell apart.
Here in 2023, with the slow fade of Russia’s vaunted Winter Offensive, attention is now turning to what the Ukrainans are going to do, and they don’t have much choice but to attack. Even if this whole thing ends in a settlement Ukraine simply must re-gain lost ground and inflict a clear and serious offensive defeat on the Russian Army.
The question is whether they’ll be any better than the Russian Army has been on attack, given their common heritage of everything from weapons to training to officers and chain of command?
Certainly Western militaries have been training thousands of Ukrainians for months now, and this is on top of smaller-scale weapons training going back almost a decade. The latter seemed to show in the Ukrainian Army not falling apart and being effective in slowing and then stopping the Russian invasion in early 2022, turning Putin’s 96-hour victory-fest into the year-plus, blood-soaked slog. The former showed up in late 2022 when the Ukrainians attacked on the Northern Kharkiv front and achieved successes even they probably couldn’t have expected, and that included success in strategic deception:
I’ve been predicting that Ukraine would strike first at Kherson. You’ll also know I’ve consistently referred to the Kharkiv front as a backwater. The Russians agreed with my assessment. They moved about 20,000 troops from the Kharkiv front to Kherson and promptly emplaced them north of the Dnieper. This left the Kharkiv front defended by the highly unreliable Luhansk People’s Republic army (quisling Ukrainians) stiffened with a mixture of paratroopers (VDV), riot police (OMON), and riot police SWAT teams (SOBR)
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When the Ukrainians hit them with fresh, well-trained, well-equipped formations, the front dissolved.
In fact the Ukrainians moved 50km in one day at one point in the battle, and this caused the Russians to begin pulling troops out of Kherson as well and at that stage things began to turn into a rout, as described by Austrian Army Colonel Markus Reisner:
“And then something happened that has always happened in history, but which is always difficult to predict: Panic broke out on the Russian side. The Russians tried to bring in reserves, but the Ukrainian advance was too fast
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Not only did we see the combination of main battle tanks, armored personnel carriers and mobile artillery, but also many small, highly mobile units that could advance very quickly. Above all, they quickly advanced into the towns and hoisted the Ukrainian flag there. These images increased the panic among the Russians
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The Russians, too, were apparently afraid of being surrounded by the Ukrainians, so they left their heavy equipment behind and retreated to the east with light vehicles as quickly as possible.
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The breakthrough at Balaklija should go down in history”
It was impressive stuff and it led to some very unhappy voices back in Russia with Pro-Putin Russian bloggers bitterly denouncing the military and even Putin himself for the sorry state of affairs that had led the Russian military to this low point, while Western analysts asked the same uncomfortable questions, as in this thread:
1/ Did a culture of institutionalised lying contribute to Russia’s recent disaster east of Kharkiv, by giving its senior commanders a distorted and false picture of the true situation on the ground? Reviewing the evidence…
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2/ While reading Russian soldiers’ personal accounts from published intercepted phone calls and personal accounts, I’ve seen one point mentioned repeatedly: Russian army officers frequently lie to their superiors about their unit’s status.
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23/ Russian milbloggers have condemned such false reporting. The Telegram channel Zа (V)Побѣду (“To (V) Victory”) commented on this issue, which was said to be a problem on the Kharkiv front, a few days ago.
In just two weeks, Ukraine liberated some 2,500 square kilometers, which must be seen in the context of the 125,000 square kilometers Russia previously held in Ukraine. But as with Ukraine’s failure to collapse a year ago, what counts is not the land but what it means for them to have done so well against the supposedly formidable Russian Army. It’s also meaningful to see the type of Russian soldiers lost:
The Russian command has used the fighting forces of the self-proclaimed Luhansk and Donetsk People’s Republics as cannon fodder. By doing so, they have lost thousands of the only soldiers who had skin in Putin’s game: These fighting-age men were anti-Ukrainian by definition — and committed to combat as fiercely as Ukrainians themselves. Few Russian soldiers could match their determination. When Kyiv began its counterattack, the Luhansk and Donetsk fighters had been nearly eliminated by attrition.
Indeed, the positions in the Kharkiv region were manned by Russia’s regular military, fighting for cash: They folded without putting up much of a fight when Ukrainians pushed hard enough.
Now, the Luhansk People’s Republic, “apart from frontline areas, is probably empty of manpower,” tweeted Polish military analyst Konrad Muzyka, one of the most astute observers of the campaign. Fighting-age males were drafted in large numbers in the past few months, he said, meaning “there are no men to fight in Luhansk.”
Since then the whole battlefront, North to South, has seen little more than small actions, with grinding efforts especially around the Northern city of Bakhmut, although nobody knows why either side cares about that. If the Ukrainians hold it means nothing because it’s not a jumping off point to anywhere for anything as the Russians have solid defensive lines East and South. The same is true in return: if Russia took the city the Ukrainians have solid defensive lines to the West. It seems that it may just have been a glory play by Prigozhin’s Wagner group to show the Russian MoD how it’s done. Unfortunately it hasn’t gone as planned for Prigozhin, who can be found on this Tweet bitching about the Russian MoD:
Prigozhin’s drama continues: Russian MoD in a statement earlier today said any complaints made by assault forces on the lack of ammo are untrue. Prigozhin responded again by saying it was a lie, and spitting into the faces of “heroes” by MoD, committing a crime against them.
Half the fascination of this war has been watching the eruption into public view of fights between Putin supporters. After some reports that Ukraine would give up the city they changed their minds, which likely means they’re happy with the loss rate of them vs Wagner in this little meatgrinder.
Going back to the bigger picture the question is whether the Ukrainians do repeat their Kharkiv-Kherson again:
- Fool the Russians as to where the attack is taking place and hide their order of battle while knowing exactly the Russian order of battle and emplacement.
- Have effective combined arms operations maneuvering fast across country?
- Be able to maintain the tempo of this with logistics of food, fuel and ammunition keeping up with a moving front and putting in fresh troops to replace those lost?
Taking each question in turn.
First, the general consensus seems to be that this time the Ukrainians have to strike in such a way as to cut off Russia’s Southern troops, and that likely means attacking across some 200kms of Russian-held territory to take the city of Mariupol on the shores of the Sea of Azov.
It’s possible that they might hit further South but this is not about re-taking land as much as cutting road and rail links, which would force Russian forces in the South to withdraw to the Crimean peninsula or perhaps even give that up.
Unlike the Kharkiv-Kherson operation however, the objective is hard to hide, which is why the Russians have been busy building defensive lines against such an attack, as this map shows.
Second, a lot of the training of the Ukraine Army by Western soldiers has recently been with tanks, which are not something you need to play defense, but must haves if you’re going to attack:
Ukrainian Patriot crews are finishing their training, and those systems should be in operation within the month. Ukrainian battalions are finishing their training on Marder, Bradley, and CV-90. Challenger 2 and Leopard 2 crews are also completing their training.
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Poland and Slovakia will transfer 40 MiG-29 fighters to Ukraine.
No training needed on those for Ukrainian pilots, but do they know how to support a ground operation?
Russia has also been beefing themselves up with new tanks. Well, newly refurbished anyway…
Third, Leopard 2 and Challenger 2 tanks, self-propelled artillery and armoured infantry fighting vehicles like Marders and Bradley’s sound great – but on attack they require a lot of logistics support with fuel, ammunition and maintenance. I’ve seen almost nothing about equipping and training the Ukraine Army for that. Can that part of the Army make it all the way to the coast? Same with transporting the food, fuel and ammunition the troops need, plus rotation of them. It’s a sophisticated dance, even more so when you’re trying to do all this while smashing through solidly prepared Russian defensive lines against an Army that can certainly fight better on defence than offence.
We await the end of the famous “rasputitsa”, the season of mud that bedeviled the Germans in 1941/42 and the Russians last year, exacerbated by a warmer then normal Winter and Spring – something that may also have been a factor in the Russian non-offensive.
A Ukrainian attack could come as early as April, certainly no later than May.
So what happens if the plan and the capabilities come together and they succeed in their (assumed) objectives of cutting the Russian occupation in half and re-gaining the entire South of the occupied zone?
This is where the Tannenberg scenario arises:
When Europe went to war in 1914, its armies and peoples were saddled with many myths. One of these was the myth of the “Russian steamroller.” There were widespread ideas that the Russian Army’s inexhaustible peasant manpower represented a force against with the Germans and Austrians could not possibly stand.
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An army group headquarters, called Northwest Front, had been set up for this purpose, but it was situated too far in the rear to provide effective command and control. Nor did the armies themselves trouble to coordinate their movements, advancing into East Prussia without much concern for what was happening on the opposite flank. And both armies were troubled from the start by logistical problems
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The ill effects of command deficiencies and poor staff work were compounded by poor intelligence and lax communications security. The Russian cavalry failed in fulfilment of the only useful role remaining to it: reconnaissance. Though aircraft were available, they too failed to help commanders build up a picture of what was happening on the other side of the hill. From first to last, Russian commanders had very little idea what the Germans were doing. And to cap this sad tale of incompetence, since coding and decoding took an inordinate amount of time the various headquarters took to sending radio messages in the clear.
Sounds familiar doesn’t it? But the underlying reasons for this were the real killer:
The Army of Nicholas II was clumsy and inefficient precisely because the tsarist regime itself was clumsy and inefficient. Its façade may have been magnificent, glittering—but a glance behind the curtain disclosed indolence, incompetence, indifference, corruption, and decay.
Putin admires the czars – as do most Russians – perhaps more than he ought to:
On the eve of the Russo-Ukraine War, there was much talk in the West about Russia’s decade-long military reform program, which supposedly had refurbished the Russian armed forces after years of decay and neglect. This notion was central to the widely held opinion that once the war began it would end quickly, with Russia victorious.
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The resources devoted to military reform were largely squandered due to inefficiency, incompetence, and corruption. Further, we would find that V. Putin was quite unaware of this. In a despotic state, nobody’s ever in a hurry to deliver bad news to the despot. And finally, we would find that the premium placed on loyalty left military competence at a discount.
However, even if the expected Ukrainian attack succeeds I can’t see Putin stopping this war, precisely because of the weaknesses listed above. Could he survive even a settlement – a big come-down from the victory expected a year ago – let alone a clear military defeat? Could it actually make this situation more dangerous:
Yet I also implicitly understand a dark truth: the worse Vladimir Putin’s army fares on the battlefield, the more of a threat he becomes to the entire world. It’s a counterintuitive reality, but a very serious one. This offensive is precisely the kind of development I fear might render Putin increasingly desperate, and thus, dangerous.
The moment right before his regime collapses will be the most perilous for the world, when Putin could conceivably reach for any one of his many nuclear weapons, to prevent outright military loss in Ukraine, and save himself from being toppled. After all, if Russia’s conventional forces are routed, tactical nuclear weapons would presumably become the next logical step for a regime desperate to avoid a complete military catastrophe.
There’s a very real risk of Putin doing something that is utterly insane to save his own skin. As they say, desperate men do desperate things.
That is a Russian/Ukrainian writer, Alexander Ziperovich who, while very pro-Ukrainian sounds like a sober person:
The Western world simply doesn’t have the luxury of not thinking about these issues, and working to prevent this war from spinning utterly out of control. While it’s emotionally satisfying to call for Putin’s head, that may not be the wisest course of action.
I’ve been called a naive rube and worse for calling for renewed diplomacy with Russia, but I’ll risk that label. Eventually, Ukraine must try to leverage its mounting progress on the battlefield into some kind of negotiated peace, backed by the White House and NATO. Diplomatic conduits to the Kremlin must be explored, in Tel Aviv, Beijing, Ankara; Washington should feel out whomever is still talking to the Kremlin, and see if negotiations are a possibility.
Peace must be the ultimate goal here, even as the fighting continues. In that brief window of time right before Vladimir Putin is toppled, when he could theoretically use nuclear weapons, there should be another option available to him: diplomacy.
Moral maximalism won’t end this war.
The problem here is that the West seems increasingly driven by “moral maximalism” across almost every issue.
Related:
- Russia’s War in Ukraine:Myths and Lessons (Estonian Ministry of Defence)
- Ukraine: Russia’s Verdun?
Interesting read about the “Myths”
Conclusion.? Russia is a far greater threat to the West than we realised. It is Hitlers strategy in reverse, grabbing areas they think they have a legitimate right to wrapped in a belief that the West wont react., eg Czechoslovakia, Austria, the Sudenland.
This is all hidden behind claims the West is threatening Russia by arming itself to protect itself from Russian aggression.
But Russia has failed many times before. Without the West’s suppport, logistics etc Russia would have been crushed by Germany in WW2.
I think American intelligence and strategic support is playing a huge unseen part in this war.
There can be no negotiated peace, Russia must be defeated, IMO.
Verdun and the WW1 Russian war teaches us nothing now, Those lessons have been learnt. Mobile fast attacks by combined forces are the answer. Perhaps the Russian summer offense should be allowed to develop and then crush that.?
After Ukraine then Poland…. ? You allow Putin , like Hitler to win then the poblems are only bigger down the track.
Just ask Andre, the historian
Oh dear Rossco
This is an American War being run by the ghastly Neocons who are using young Ukrainian men as cannon fodder.
But after 30 years of the Neocon rampage that has left numerous Nations destroyed and millions dead with 10s of millions displaced they have over reached
The Western vassals of the USA have poured billions of dollars of weaponry into this project while at home their own economies are tanking
And trust in Western Banking institutions is at an all time low
Meanwhile China which has the biggest economy in the World is building trade ties with other nations that do not use the currencies and settlement systems of Western Banks and bypass them all together
And this is why the Western Foreign Policy establishment are panicking
The ultimate question for Ukraine and the West, a question that they have failed to ask about any war since Korea, is: What does victory look like?
What the West fails to understand here is that Russia is not fighting this war for shits and giggles. Rightly or wrongly, they are in Ukraine on the basis of feeling an existential threat. This is not Hitler gobbling up ethnic German territories outside his realm. While Putin does see repatriating Russians as important, that’s a secondary benefit. The Russians are actually fighting because they believe Russia is in danger from a Western-allied Ukraine. And they won’t stop until they perceive that the danger is no longer there.
The West has no path to victory in this war that doesn’t involve mutually assured nuclear destruction. But Russia will not stop unless that happens. Do you see the problem here?
I actually think Putin would be amenable to ceding non-Crimean territorial gains if it meant a neutral, NATO-free Ukraine. Of course, the neocons don’t want that, so the US will just keep adding billions to keep the meat grinder going.
One only has to look at the spend on Defense as a proportion of GDP for all European countries over the last 25 years to negate your arguments, and Putin’s
Nobody but nobody on the line of conflict with Russia wants to be swallowed next. They are all scrambling, especially Poland, to arm themselves. The Ukrainians dont want peace with Russia as they know what comes next, the camps, the crushing of opinion, the rape and pillage, the kidnapping of children, and a return to peasant status within a country run by Putin crony’s.
Thank you Russia and Putin for destroying 50 years of peace in Europe to fulfil the dreams of a little man..
Dear Andre, why do you always pick on the shit hole countries to try and make some point about the decline of the West. That man was justifying his own system to justify his own position in it.
Yawwwwwwwwwwn,
Biden good, Putin bad.
That upstart Russian Orthodox Slav needs to be put in his place and reminded that Anglo Saxons have been selected by God to rule the world due to their innate superiority.
You have failed the grasp that “American Exceptionalism” is the successor to Nazi German philosophy.
The American and Western elites like all individuals of below average IQ resort to violence when they cannot win debates in the intellectual realm
Which of course is why they dismantled Yugoslavia by bombing the crap out of it, wrecked Iraq, failed to subdue Afghanistan and in true Barbarian fashion bombed Libya into the stone age, a crime that will surely resonate through history
I can’t tell if you thought up this stupidity all by yourself, or if you’re just parroting MSM talking points, but either way, that’s just deranged. There are specific policy objectives for the Russians in fighting this war. You can support those, or think they are crazy, or be where I am somewhere in between, but they exist, and the notion that Putin is the new Napoleon or Hitler just doesn’t pass muste
“That upstart Russian Orthodox Slav needs to be put in his place and reminded that Anglo Saxons have been selected by God to rule the world due to their innate superiority
You have failed the grasp that “American Exceptionalism” is the successor to Nazi German philosophy”.
My God Andrei you spout a lot of shit at times.
That is not debate Old C – it is a gratuitous insult that does nothing to critique the merits of what I posted but merely is a feeble attempt to divert attention from what I actually said.
Answer me this Old C what do you make of this Los Angeles Times article
Ukrainian court puts Orthodox priest under house arrest, alleging he condones Russia’s invasion
The Pechersk Lavra monastery is a very ancient Orthodox Monastery and a major center of our Orthodox Faith and worship since about 1000 AD and Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Polish Jew, Neocon puppet is trying to expel the monks from their home of over a 1000 years to appease his American masters
I’m sure the significance of this piece of evil will sail way over your head but there you go
It’s official, Finland will join NATO on Tuesday, April 4, European time. Yet another block in the tomb of Putin so smart:
So Smart Putin has:
Pushed neutral-leaning countries off the fence
Shown that his military was a paper tiger
Shown that his threats were meaningless.
Doubled the length of NATO’s border with Russia when the whole plan was to stop that.
So smart.
Crow away Tom Hunter
Finland joined the Axis powers in the last war who were ultimately defeated and who are today considered to be the epitome of Evil.
They have chosen the wrong side once again by joining the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization and have foolishly aligned themselves with the loosing side and being on the wrong side of history
Crowing?
I’m actually one of those people who respected Putin’s “smarts” even as I opposed some of the things he was doing, although my respect was less your praise of him having a Brain The Size Of A Planet than thinking that he had shit-house rat cunning.
But this? In terms of geo-strategy this is starting to look like Operation Barbarossa levels of fucktardary. And for all your talk of an alliance with China and the BRICS Russia’s economic, demographic and now military weaknesses are going to turn your nation into a supplicant for China; you’ll supply cheap resources to them and little else.
That is your Anglo genes expressing themselves – a good deal is when you put something over the people you are dealing with and the more you screw them over the better.
On the other hand the sort of deals the Chinese, Russians, Indians etc are negotiating are win-win propositions. Russian timber goes to China where it is transformed into the flat pack furniture you buy at the warehouse and everybody wins and is happy.
I see OPEC is cutting oil production which will see crude being sold for over $100 a barrel – hey ho
Our brilliant ex PM gave our strategic petroleum reserve to the EU last year to help “punish” Russia by allowing the EU to cut back on buying Russian oil, How’d that work out in the long term?
Russia’s economy is flourishing as the cheap oil that went to the EU was diverted to India and China from whence it is exported to the EU as far more expensive oil
The dumbness of Western economic policies is beyond astonishing.
The destruction of the Nord Stream Pipelines didn’t hurt Russia, it hurt Europe and Germany in particular – the cheap gas that powered German industry is now flowing through The Power of Siberia pipelines, which are being extended BTW, to China and soon will be going to India as well. Meanwhile German Industries are collapsing
‘Crippling’ Energy Bills Force Europe’s Factories to Go Dark
Manufacturers are furloughing workers and shutting down lines because they can’t pay the gas and electric charges.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad
This may come as a surprise to you – I imagine many things do – but every race I’ve ever encountered in my life has had the same approach to economics, including getting resources as cheap as possible. I don’t think it’s a racial thing but no doubt you’ll keep punching that line for reactions. It’s almost trollish.
As someone who very much appreciates karma I can say that I very much like this outcome as a silver lining, since it will force these retards to start developing their own resources sooner or later.
Either that or Great Depression II looms.
Still doesn’t change the fact that your new “friend” Xi has your hero Vlad by the balls for the rest of his life. That’s kind of a silver lining for me too. 🙂
I love you Tom
Thank God that with your posts on this blog we can still enjoy robust debate despite disagreement
You are preserving the Western Values we both seek to preserve and perpetuate.
I did write a long response to your previous but since WordPress is crappy software it got lost before I could post it c’est la vie.
Suffice it to say we both know, I’d posit, that we are in for a rough ride before the world settles into a new semi stable new economic equilibrium,
I’d suggest to you that when the dust settles the world’s financial hubs will be Beijing, Moscow and Delhi, rather than New York, London and Brussels